Hawk’s Cry

6 Responses to “Pagan Sin”

1. Daisy Says:
   December 5th, 2007 at 12:23 pm

   Very interesting post. I just wrote a review of the anime film PAPRIKA on my blog, and I hesitated before using the term SIN, but went ahead, because I felt the FRAMING of the issue was DAMNATION OF THE SOUL, i.e. no redemption possible.

   Redemption = made better, overcome, to rinse clean.

   Hard to discuss these things using different words, if these are the words we were raised with!

   Interesting posts and blog.

2. Morninghawk Says:
   December 5th, 2007 at 9:02 pm

   To some, committing a sin is not redeemable. I disagree with this idea because when we commit a sin, we can acknowledge it and learn from the experience. We can be redeemed.

   Since I see this life as being simply one in a long chain of reincarnated lives, there has to be redemption. It is by taking responsibility for what we have done and doing what is needed to make it right is what brings about that redemption. As a result, there is no way we can be eternally damned.

   Thanks for the comment.

3. Lady ElderCraft Says:
   December 30th, 2007 at 1:45 am

   another excellent and most provocative post!
   And here I am shedding another P.O.V….

   I have actually written extensively on this subject and found this particular article of your very controversial…

   The concept of sin, or ‘action contrary to devine law” one will find is pre-evolution of Karma and can be seen as being similar to the law of congruity. Sin, in the christian sense, is generally governed by the availings of the 10 commandments. There are more than ten, and for reference, i will post them here:

   Exodus 20:2–17 Deuteronomy 5:6–21
   2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

   3 Do not have any other gods before Me.

   4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

   5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

   6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

   7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

   8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

   9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

   10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

   11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

   12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

   13 You shall not murder.

   14 You shall not commit adultery.

   15 You shall not steal.

   16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

   17 You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
   6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

   7 you shall have no other gods before me.

   8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

   9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,

   10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

   11 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

   12 Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.

   13 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

   14 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you.

   15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.

   16 Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

   17 You shall not murder.

   18 Neither shall you commit adultery.

   19 Neither shall you steal.

   20 Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbour.

   21 Neither shall you covet your neighbour’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbour’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

   … Reading them will make you very aware of an angry and smiteful god who one finds themselves in debt to, who will curse your family through generations, should you find disagreement with him and make “sin” against his laws.

   So ’sin’ in this aspect is generally understood as an action against these commandments.

   As you mentioned islam, id like to say something about that also. Islam commands its followers to avoid many things. Some of them are prohibited because they contradict some of the doctrines in which a Moslem is supposed to believe. Some of them are prohibited because they are immoral or unethical or unhealthy or because they represent disobedience to the devotional duties. These prohibitions may be regarded as Islamic commandments, the violation of which may constitute a major sin. A Muslim is prohibited:

   1. To ascribe to God a partner or associate:

   “Associate not any other god with the Almighty, lest thou sit down despised forsaken.” 17:22

   2. To deny revelation of God to His prophets.

   3. To deny any of the prophets who are recognized by the Qur’an, such as Jesus, Moses, Abraham, and Noah. The denial of the revelation or any of the recognized prophets is a denial of Islam.

   4. To feel safe in opposition to God:

   “Are they secure against the plan of God? But none feels secure against the plan of God except the losing people. ” 7:99

   5. To lose hope in mercy of God:

   “…And despair not of the mercy of God. Surely none despairs of the mercy of God except the disbelieving people.” 12:87

   6. To swear in the name of God falsely:

   “Hast thou not seen those who take for friends a people with whom God is wrathful? They are neither of you nor of them, and they swear falsely, while they know. God has prepared for them a severe chastisement. Evil indeed is what they do!” 58:14-15

   7. To break a covenant deliberately:

   “And fulfill the covenant of God when you have made a covenant, and break not the oaths after making them fast, and you have, indeed, made God your surety. Surely God knows what you do.” 16:91

   8. To kill a human being premeditatively.

   “And slay not the soul which God has forbidden except for the just cause…. ” 17:33

   “Your lives and properties are sacred and inviolable amongst you, until you appear before your Lord…. ” said the Prophet.

   9. To be traitor to the right cause of one’s own nation.

   10. To help defeat it militarily by retreating at the battlefield when the nation is defending itself against aggression:

   “And whoso turns his back to them (the aggressors) on that day (of fight), unless maneuvering for battle or turning to join a company, he indeed incurs God’s wrath and his refuge is hell, and an evil destination it is.” 8:16

   11. To steal.

   12. To cheat in measuring or weighing in selling or purchasing:

   “Woe to the cheaters. Who when they take the measure (of their dues) from the people, take it fully, and when they measure out to others or weigh out for them they give less than is due.” 83:1-3

   13. To use an orphan’s fund in a way that is not in his interest:

   “And draw not nigh to the orphan’s fund, except in a goodly way, till he attains his maturity, and fulfill the covenant; surely the covenant will be inquired to!” 17:34

   14. To insult one’s own parent:

   “And thy Lord has decreed that ye worship none but Him, and do good to the parents. If one of them or both of them reach old age with thee, say not “Fie” to them, nor chide them, and speak to them kind words. And lower to them the wing of humility of mercy, and say: My Lord, have mercy on them as they brought me up (when I was) little.” 17:23-24

   15. To commit adultery:

   “And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an obscenity. And evil is the way.” 17:32

   16. To scandalize people, especially women:

   “Those who love to see that scandal should circulate concerning the believers, will have a grievous chastisement in this world and the Hereafter, and God knows, while you know not.” 24:19

   “Those who scandalize virtuous, believing women (who are) careless, cursed are they in this world and the Hereafter. Theirs will be an awful doom, on the day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet testify against them as to what they used to do. On that day God will pay them their just dues, and they will know that God is the Manifest Truth.” 24:23-25

   17. To spy on others for no purpose of protecting your nation or yourself.

   18. To backbite others, exposing to those who do not know, some shameful doing:

   “. . . And spy not nor backbite each other. . .” 49:12

   19. To gamble.

   20. To drink intoxicants:

   “O you who believe, intoxicants and games of chance. . .are only an abomination, the devil’s work; so shun it, that you may succeed. The devil desires only to create enmity and hatred among you by means of intoxicants and games of chance, and to prevent you from the remembrance of God and from prayer. So will you obey this prohibition?” 5:93-94

   21. To eat pork or any swine’s products.

   22. To eat or drink blood. (This does not include transfusion of blood for necessity.)

   23. To eat meat of an animal that dies by itself, or the meat of an animal on which the name of other than God is invoked when it is slain:

   “He has forbidden you only what dies of itself, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that over which (a name) other than the name of God is invoked (when it is slaughtered) . . . ” 2:173

   24. To lie deliberately or testify falsely or falsify the word of God willingly:

   “Only they forge lies who believe not in the messages of God, and they are the liars.” 16:105

   25. To conceal a testimony when called to testify in a litigation:

   “. . .And conceal not testimony. And whoever conceals it, his heart is surely sinful. And God knows what you do.” 2:283

   26. To deliberately hinder a good cause.

   27. To spread hatred by conveying to a person a bad word about him spoken by another person:

   “And obey not any mean swearer, defamer, going about with slander, hinderer of good, transgressing beyond the limits, sinful, ignoble, besides all that, notoriously mischievous. . .” 68:10-13

   28. To violate the terms of a dead man’s will:

   “Then whoever changes it (the will) after he heard it, the sin of it is only upon those who change it. Surely God is Hearing, Knowing.” 2:181

   29. To oppress the people.

   30. To aid an oppressor.

   “…And let not hatred of a people because they hindered you from the Sacred Mosque incite you to make aggression. And help one another in righteousness and piety, and help not one another in sin and aggression. Surely God is severe in requiting (evil).” 5:9

   31. To be proud, looking down on the people:

   “And turn not thy cheek in scorn towards people, nor go about in the land in insolence. Surely God loves not any self-conceited boaster. ” 31:18

   32. To be envious, wishing People ill:

   “Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, From the evil of things created,. . . And from the evil of the envious when he envies . ” 113

   33. To antagonize a relative for no right cause:

   “Will you be making mischief in the land and cut off the ties of kinship if you come to power?” 47:22

   34. To neglect any of the five daily prayers.

   35. To break fasting in the days of Ramadan without a legitimate excuse.

   36. To withhold the “Zakah” which is the share of the poor in the self-supporting person’s wealth.

   37. To neglect the duty of pilgrimage to Mecca which has to be done once in a life-time by every person who is physically and financially able to make it.

   38. To neglect the duty of advising the people to do good and avoid evil when such an advice is needed and likely to be effective.

   The last five are regarded as major sins, because the prayer, fasting, paying Zakah, making pilgrimage and enjoining good and prohibiting evil are Qur’anic duties.

   So here again, the boundrys and conveyances of “sin” and how one commits “sin” is very clear and definate.

   Are occultists/pagans/witches/wiccans bound by such terms? Im my opinion, No we are not. We are not because we are beings of free will. that being understood, we are also governed by the Law of three..

   The law of three is symbolic of the intensity of consequense of one who knows a higher-consciousness and delibrately neglects, abuses or abandons it’s absolute authority within ourselves. The law of three teaches us that we, as occultists, are more apt to the flow of congruity as we excell through our paths with the use of higher-consiousness, and therefore are taught much quicker how we maybe living inefficiently or abusively, and how we maybe affecting the world around us with any lower or abusive thought, word or action.

   The law of three teaches us that the higher mind is not tolerant of the lower actions of consiousness and human interaction, and that anything resembling it in the behaivoural/personification sense of an occultist will be quickly strpped away, regardless of circumstance. such is the fury of the dark lady in her intolerance for abuse and blasphemy against humanity itself.. and not her or her many facets.

   We are not subject to sin, in the sense of the word and its true meaning and resonace. However, the law of congruity fledges with us the day we choose our higher-consciousness and the pathway the deity.

   ElderCraftGuild

   http://www.eldercraftguild.com

4. Morninghawk Says:
   December 30th, 2007 at 9:11 pm

   I think I might not have made myself clear enough about the Abrahamic idea of sin. The Abrahamic religions view sin as disobeying God’s will. The rules listed in the Bible, Torah and Quran are ways those religions describe what God’s will is.

   There are many things that various denominations disagree on regarding what is sin because those topics are not ruled upon in their scriptures. This includes such topics as abortion, birth control, gambling, lending money, etc. Each denomination and group needs to discover for themselves what their God’s will is about these areas of life and others.

   I don’t agree that the Wiccan Law of Three is about “the fury of the dark lady in her intolerance for abuse and blasphemy against humanity itself.” Instead, I see the Law of Three as a way of describing the natural and impersonal consequences of our actions and inactions. My Gods don’t punish me for making bad choices. Instead, I just have to live with the undesirable natural consequences of my bad choices.

   I also respectfully disagree we are not subject to sin, “in the sense of the word and its true meaning and resonance,” as you wrote. I’m not sure how you define the “true meaning and resonance” of the word “sin.” Using the definition on Dictionary.com of “transgression of divine law,” I think we are all subject to this idea.

   Thanks for the provocative comment. I also thank you for the information on Islam, as I admit that my understanding of it is much more limited than I would like.

5. Lady ElderCraft Says:
   December 31st, 2007 at 10:23 am

   Quote”I don’t agree that the Wiccan Law of Three is about “the fury of the dark lady in her intolerance for abuse and blasphemy against humanity itself.” Instead, I see the Law of Three as a way of describing the natural and impersonal consequences of our actions and inactions. My Gods don’t punish me for making bad choices. Instead, I just have to live with the undesirable natural consequences of my bad choices”.Unquote.

   It is only when you have an “outer veiw” of deity, that you will understand this statement as so. many carry a “lay” understanding of gods.. being the understanding of gods in the old pagan veiw. that we are at their mercy. But we must know that this veiw of deity was birthed due to our closeness and dependancy of the earth and its seasons and how it gives or takes from us. This was veiwed as the work and dominon and prevailance of the gods of nature and man.

   many began to interject this “devine dominance over providence” veiw into matters within human interaction, such as love, war and so on…

   But this is a limited understand of deitic force. “The goddess”, in my veiw, is NOT some mystical being, sitting on high somwhere in the heavens or the earths pointing and ordering and demanding the way of things leaving all at her mercy. “The goddess” in my veiw is the universe, and expression and all that coincides, conceives and perceives within it, including ultimate universal law and all that it governs, in a natural circuitry and order.

   and it is this, that when resisted, and disobeyed by those who would know better(occultists,pagans,wiccans..anyone of the path of higher consciousness), that the goddess with her governing energies of laws and lore unleashes her fury within your life. This is the way of the goddess. You would really care to do some study on why we, as occultists/pagans/wiccans/witches, are not subject to original sin or any sin for that matter. And you may also have a more clearer veiw of the differ between yourself and a descendant of Adam and Eve.

   http://www.caw.org/articles/otherpeople.html

   **this is a link to a very important article all occultists/pagans/wiccan/witches should read about original sin and pagans, and how the bible even dismisses us from the effects of the first original sin.

   As for your comment on “sin”. You must not confuse words with your own impression of it… you must only know, through attainment of knowledge, and the clear understand, “true meaning, and reasonance” of the word can be founded where it was originally cited and where it still applies today.. Not in a website dictionary whoes source of the meaning of the word, is not shown through historical interaction of how the term came to be used. Ask an islamic what sin is, ask a christian what sin is.. and they will quote to you what is a sin, and guaranteed, its context will be listed in my previous comment.

   We as pagans/wiccans/occultist do not subscribe to this way of thinking, our goddess did not inscribe with her own finger into a stone, the laws of the witches so there is no devine law to break. To think so, is to dismiss completely the ultimate laws of cause and effect… of karma(ask any buddhist about sin, and they will explain the same), and of congruity, and the lessons that are inhereted when this law is found applied within ones circumstance.

   To admit to sin is admit to the consequenses prescribed by the term… what comes to mind…hmm.. buring in hell forever…? eternal condemnation from heaven.. least through repentance, which is a whole other bowl of fish, but i say this to serve my expressing, that this word isnt intertwined within our paganic/occultic LORE.

   You cannot extend the true and historical meaning of a word to fit your impression of it…Its when you begin to transmute what is solid into fluid that you will dry up and loose sight of actuality due the nature of impressionism.

   Please study the term historically, and then disagree with me. Please do not let your only arguement of claim to understanding, be that of a quote from a website dictionary, because it happens to fit your conception of it. Its meaning is solid, and once you have studied it, then you will know.

   Defination of word, linguistics and its use is very defined and concreted. It is in this time of new age thinking that the mind is able to bend, and impressionalize words, but an occultist is of the utimate veiw in that, one nevers “KNOWS” something, unless one “Know something” [unquote: Oberon Zell-Raventheart].. and you should never appear to[know something], if you truely do not[know something].

   ElderCraftGuild

   http://www.eldercraftguild.com

   Just quickly, I am finding, ultimately, your veiw(especially concerning deity) is very minimalistic and untrained in the actually mysteries and what they uncover about deity. I hope your veiw of it can become more availing to the universe and its ultimate law.

6. Morninghawk Says:
   December 31st, 2007 at 5:27 pm

   I think we are having a basic misunderstanding of each other. My understanding of what you’re saying is that you think that I believe in transcendent Gods, which exist separate from, outside, or beyond our physical realm. This is not how I see Them. Instead, I see the universe from a panentheistic, neoplatonic perspective. You may wish to reference my church’s Law of the Divine. In fact, our rites include a section where each participant states, “There is no part of me that is not of the Gods.”

   I do not believe that we are “at the mercy” of the Gods. They affect us but we are not powerless over our destiny, for we have the divine right of free will. My beliefs are derived heavily from the neoplatonists and the Hellenic mystery traditions. As a result, I see the Gods as existing on a plane of existence higher than the one we are on (which is Kingdom, or Earth). Above all is the Monad or the One. This One contains all that is in the universe and is the highest expression of divinity.

   As a result, I don’t see our beliefs as being as different as you think.

   Regarding my understanding of the term “sin,” I don’t see it as being an exclusively Abrahamic concept. The Abrahamics refer to it the most, as their lives are dictated by their God and they are fearful of offending this God. Most references I have seen of this term in dictionaries, including the O.E.D., refer to sin as being a violation of a moral or divine law. Abrahamics see their divine laws as being dictated to them in their holy books. My Gods don’t tell me Their divine law in that manner. Instead, the divine law in my religion is essentially to “Do as thou wilt” and is expressed to me through the workings of the natural universe and through conversations with my Gods.

   I also recognise that there are many ways the divine expresses itself to people, so I see different people having different ideas on what their Gods’ (or God’s) laws are. As a result, whatever actions violate the divine law(s) of their religion would be a sin, whether they are Abrahamic or not. For me, that would be to act in discord with my true will.

   Ultimately, I believe there are many expressions of the divine and as humans, I do not believe that anyone can fully understand its nature. As a result, I don’t believe anyone has a monopoly on the truth, including myself. Attacking me on the basis that I have an “minimalistic and untrained” understanding is, in my view, unproductive and contrary to the ideals of a fruitful dialog. I am on this earth to learn, which is why I enjoy conversing with you. I hope you can have the same approach.

   I appreciate your link to the CAW article. Though I’ve read many Green Egg/CAW articles, I hadn’t read that one and I like the additional description it gave regarding Genesis 3. Like the author, it will give me more ability to entertain myself when Christians wish to convert me.

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